Oh I'm so mad

[Raggs]

I made a post about the groomer that decided to bop Rambo on the nose when giving him a biscuit. Well I just went to give him one for the first time since that happened. He wouldn't take it from me. He kept dropping his head and backing up. It took me 3 minutes for him to take it from my hand. He took it really gently finally, but still. He was scared to death of taking it from me. I so want to go back there and smack that lady now. I called and talked to the owner after it happened and she stood by her groomer (which any good employer should do). But she didn't see anything wrong with what the groomer did. She said that when she learned to train her dog they told her to bop her dog in the nose if he got to aggressive. I told her, yeah, your own dog, not a dog that was brought there for grooming. Then I told her that I do know that trainers use that technique. So she couldn't understand why I was complaining. Then I told her to act like I didn't know anything about training or grooming. The lady just hit my dog. Didn't say anything along the lines of why she did that or anything. If I was a regular person with no knowledge I'd be having a b*itch fit because you guys just abused my dog. Then she understood and said that I made a good point. She said she would speak with her groomers. So hopefully they wont do that to any other dogs, and if they do they better inform the customer that it is a training technique used by a lot of trainers.

[rapuzzled]

I still admire your restraint, lol. I just can't believe that she would hit your dog, and then her boss defended it!?!?!Geez

[Pixie]

I'm glad you put it in a way that the boss could understand where you're coming from, someone who knows nothing about training just a regular customer. Really hope she does talk to her groomers and it doesn't happen again.

Hope Rambo starts taking his treats from you again soon. Maybe after he has a few without being bopped on the nose he'll forget what happened.

[DAPER DAWG]

I have taken training courses at the humane society and have been reading a lot of training a behavior books and none of them say anything about bopping a dog on the nose. Everything I read stresses the importance of POSITIVE reinforcement only.

Especially if it is a nervous dog such as you were stating rambo is (I don't believe you said he was agressive) , the atmosphere she should have created was to try and make it fun for him with the biscuit. She should've been really high voiced kind like kids when they play and try to lure them in a fun way to come with/near her ( oh what a good boy) and then provide the treat when he did it.

I'd particularly love to see her bop an agressive dog on the nose she'll probably get her hand bit off some day either by a fear biter or an alpa dog taking it as a threat.

I have seen groomers give a light bop with the comb when some dogs are trying to bite it or their hand and it works well but not with nervous or agressive dogs.

[mustluvdogs1]

Dogs who nip

When a dog nips you, you as a groomer can tap him underneath on his chin,coming from under so he doesn't get hand-shy. I see owners whith chewey-bitey pups tap them on the nose, or bipo them. No NO I tell them...it is underneath so they don't see your hand and become hand shy. That woman is similar to ones who take scissors out of a groomers' hand....well try that and get jabbed. But they take them from the table or where they hang. Big NO NO!I hope Rambo recovers soon. With TLC I am sure he will. Keep that woman out of the shop. She won't come back...will she?To me, it is viewed as correcting someone elses child. Don't cha think?

[Helly]

First, Rambo wasn't scared to death to take the treat. He was (and probably still is) confused. He found himself with a problem to solve, and had to go through the process to solve it.

"Am I supposed to take it or not? I went to take it and got bopped, so maybe I'm not supposed to take it. But then again, why is she offering it if I'm not supposed to take it. Oh BOTHER! What am I supposed to do? Can I take it? Or not? What if I go ahead and take it, but do it really slow and easy?" And in the end, he solved the problem...he's supposed to take it, but take it gently.

Second, people are not using the term "Positive Correction" and "Positive Reinforcement" correctly. Positive does not mean happy, pleasant, or nice. Positive means adding a stimulus. A bop on the nose IS positive correction. So is a tug on the leash, clapping your hands, or yelling "NO!"

Positive reinforcement can be a "GOOD DOG!", a treat, or a pat on the head. It can also be a smack on the behind if it's intended to reinforce the dog moving his behind in a specific manner.

Now please, do not interpret this as a wholesale endorsement of bopping a dog on the nose, as that is not what I am intending at all. But I have experienced some remarkable changes in attitude when a dog accidentally recieved a bop on the nose. Like the intact male Rotti that lunged at me, knocked the bottle of shampoo I was holding out of my hand, and it hit him squarely on the end of his nose. His eyes flew wide open, he took a step back, sat down, and looked at me with a new found respect. I never had another moment of trouble with him. No, I don't go around bopping dogs on the nose. But I'm also not going to look a gift bop, um...horse, in the mouth, so to speak.

[Raggs]

Your right Helly. Like I said I know trainers that will bop dogs in the front of the nose with a closed fist. I had to do it to my dads dog the other day because she was trying to bite me for feeling her stomach.

Rambo is how I would say, "special". His daddy babies him, he's scared of new people, he get nervous easily. It took me such a long time to leash train him because Aaron thought I was being mean. He has asked me not to teach him in a manner that is being mean or hurtful to Rambo in any way. So to teach him to take a treat nicely I have to wait till he's calm then slowly give it to him and if he goes to rip it out of my hand I pull back and tell him no. After about 2 or 3 of those he takes it easy. Then I praise him for that. Rambo is 3 years old and Aaron never taught him to take a treat. He would always just throw it on the ground for him so he doesn't know any better than trying to take it fast. He used to live with another Lab that would snatch everything away from him. If Rambo wanted a treat he would have to make a mad dash for it and most of the time he doesn't chew, he will just swallow them whole. Large bones, flat rawhides, anything. I finally talked Aaron into not giving him the rawhides anymore.

I've bopped dogs on the nose or under the chin before (gently) with my comb like someone else said when a dog tries to go after me. Usually I try to have one of those prefilled toothbrushes around. Those are softer and have give.


The main thing that bugged me about all of it though is that I didn't tell them that I knew anything about training and the groomer didn't even pet Rambo and didn't even bother to say that it was a technique used in training. If I was just a regular joe schmo I would have thought that she was beating my dog.

[DogChic]

trainer on martha ....

there's a dog trainer that appears on the martha stewart show every now and then (and i CAN'T remember her name ... ? i'll look it up). but she used this EXACT method the other day, when training a dog to take a treat nicely. it wasn't a "Bop" but more of a finger tap i guess. and no, the dog was not 'scared' but trying to figure out what to do, and it did work. personally, i don't think you need the bop/finger tap ... just use a close fist & don't allow the dog to have the treat until he backs off, and then allow him to take the treat gently.

the trainer is OK, but i don't think her methods are all that effective. i'm sure she can train her own dogs ok, but the things that she demonstrates are kind of silly sometimes.

[bitty]

Regardless, you took the dog to be groomed, not trained!!!