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Can anyone lend some insight?

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  • Can anyone lend some insight?

    I have client with two full coated maltese. They are gorgeous (!) and get groomed about once a week. The owner only uses a comb, not a brush. I use a dryer with a teeny bit of heat and a gold series 35 mm CC pin brush to line brush them dry. When I do them, I use BB facial around eyes, La Pooch vitamin enriched shampoo, and La Pooch micro encapsulated conditioner. Both products are left to sit for 5 minutes with the dog wrapped in a warm towel. They are finished with a spritz of Crowne Royale #2 and the aforementioned drying process. They are NEVER matted. (how I adore this client)

    They are fed Orijen with a coat supplement, I am not sure but I think it's Royal Coat fish oil? and they've been on that food and supplement for awhille.

    For a reason I can't figure out, the older one-who is around 4-has suddenly and recently developed a weird, frizzy coat. She's dropped a fair bit of coat and the ends are drying and breaking. She's been to the vet and everything checks out so far, so it doesn't seem to be a medical reason. Everything is about the same. The only thing I can think of is that the shampoo she was using at home was Pure Paws but that was switched to the La Pooch about a month ago and she's reported very positive results.

    Pure Paws isn't that bad of a shampoo-IMO-to create such a drastic change. She was also using the Pure Paws for about a year before this happened. Is there something I'm overlooking? I also thought it *MIGHT* be a hormone change, but the vet said that's not the case. (that was a shot in the dark anyway...lol) Can anyone think of another underlying reason?
    There are 3 different kinds of people in this world: Dog people, cat people, and rational people who don't have a problem liking two things at the same time.

  • #2
    I often think its a hormone thing. I groom a pom who went through crazy changes over the years. A full gorgeous coat followed by excessive dry flaky skin and hair loss. Change of diets, pills, fish oils and shampoos to no joy. The dog looked like she was going bald (this happened to two poms I groomed, a boy and a girl). The vet issued out fancy schmancy shampoos and pills and nothing mattered so the woman gave up.
    Over time the flakes went away and the hair grew back. She has a full pom coat and has for a couple of years now.

    I don't know what happened during that time. I don't think it had to do with diet or shampoos.

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    • #3
      She WAS using Pure Paws and now is using LP and there is an issue? That is a no brainer. GO BACK to PP. Are YOU doing them once a week and she is doing them as well, or are they only getting DONE once a week? ALso, WHY are you using heat with a shampoo? There is NO REASON a shampoo without medical properties should be left to sit. IT wont help, only wastes time. Wash then use conditioner with heat if you like, but again, not needed.
      <a href="http://www.groomwise.typepad.com/grooming_smarter" target="_blank">My Blog</a> The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why. –Mark Twain

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      • #4
        What did the vet do? I'm thinking it sounds like a thyroid problem or maybe something like Cushings. I have a hard time believing that it's the shampoo.

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        • #5
          Has the dog been spayed or neutered in the last 6 months?

          Some of my dogs (LH doxies) get the yucky neuter/spay frizzies shortly after they're fixed. On one of the other lists I'm on, someone recommended using Pantene's Nature Fusion conditioner for my girl's fluffy, frizzy, formerly gorgeous coat - it worked wonders! It's not like it was when she was showing (shes's a 4 year old AKC Champ), but it sure is a vast improvement from what it was a few months ago.

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          • #6
            I worked for a pro handler that also bred Maltese. We washed them in dish liquid and human shampoo, followed by a creme rinse and conditioner. They were dried with a pin brush and heated stand dryer. They were fed Ken-L-Biskit twice a day mixed with a soup made from packing house meat scraps cooked with rice and LOTS of garlic.

            They were very health and their coats were great. No skin issues at all.

            If she was shedding coat, I would guess the problem is internal and not external.

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            • #7
              Medical problem

              The first vet check would not likely be a very thorough one, just checking for major stuff. If the dog had ANY surgery or illness in the last 6 months or so, or is developing any problem, it could become apparent through the coat. Also, many dogs can have trouble with constant meds like heartworm, flea, even vaccinations!! I would also make sure that the dog does not have tapeworms, prorate any meds that she gets (i.e., don't give a 10-pound dog a dose that is good for up to 20 pounds, give her half), and various other things.

              I just do not think that you are seeing a shampoo problem. Her system has taken some kind of "hit", I suspect.

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              • #8
                I personally love the smell of les pooches, but...I think, but am far from a shampoo expert, that the heavy parfumes are a bit drying, I know the les pooches dried out my hands where natures spec. for example does not, nor did coat handler or B2B. Also sounds like too much heat and sitting as well. Sometimes I think we can overdo and that can lead to negative results. I would go back to the original way with the pure paws. See what happens then.
                Also when I used les pooches, my clients complained the dogs itched.

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                • #9
                  Did the vet actually run blood tests? I just recently "lost" a pom that I've been grooming for a couple years. She had been shaved previously and when I started grooming her I refused to shave her. The hair never grew back. Blood tests said that everything was normal BUT she died unexpectedly, so they did a necropsy. Something major was wrong (can't remember what) and unless they had run a blood test for that thing specifically (which the general panel did not) it wouldn't have shown up.

                  So even if the vet couldn't find anything right off that doesn't mean it isn't medical. I've watched the vets I work with and sometimes it seems like they are playing an elimination game and it takes several rounds before they can really identify what a problem is.

                  Sorry I don't have any further insight. I hope everything works out for your little clients.
                  "The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog." -Ambrose Bierce

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                  • #10
                    I too was wondering if the dog was spayed/neutered. A lot of times after a dog gets fixed their coat tends to thin out and the texture seems to change.
                    Also, why would you have her change shampoos if the dogs were doing well on the Pure Paws? Pure Paws is a pretty good product, maybe not the best out there, but it's still a pretty good product. You should have her go back on the Pure Paws. Les Pooch is great, but maybe between her using it at home and you using it on them every week it's just too much. Maybe using the different shampoos is what helped keep the skin/coat healthy.

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                    • #11
                      I agree that there probably something internal going on. I also don't like to use the same shampoos on dogs that are bathed so frequently.
                      Old groomers never die, they just go at a slower clip.

                      Groom on!!!

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                      • #12
                        They actually weren't doing well on Pure Paws, that why I had her change. She had been using it for about a year when the coat got frizzy and weird. AFTER the coat changed was when we switched to Les Pooch to try and get it more nutrients. It's been going well so far. Sorry that wasn't more clear!

                        No spaying recently either, she's still intact.

                        The towels I use are warm, but not hot. The baby really likes it so that's why I do it with the shampoo too. The shampoo DOES work better for me when I have a chance to let it set for a couple minutes instead of immediately rinsing it. I don't always let it sit for 5 minutes, it depends on how busy I am. I always try to let it sit for a bit, and the conditioner always sits for a full 5 minutes.

                        My first inclination when I see a coat change like that is something internal too...her vet is really good though, and I don't know what all he did, but he is pretty thorough. The client is very well off and I'm sure would pay for a whatever test was recommended. She has no other symptoms of anything. That's not always indicative of nothing being wrong but I thought I'd throw that out there.

                        Oh, and she does them herself at home most of the time. She has a professional fluff dryer. Per my instructions she doesn't use the heat setting and only combs. (She has an aversion to brushes anyway) They come to me every 8 weeks for nails, wrapping topknots, rounded feet, and pads shaved.

                        What would you girls/guys use for shampoo instead?

                        Thanks for the ideas, I will put a few to use.
                        There are 3 different kinds of people in this world: Dog people, cat people, and rational people who don't have a problem liking two things at the same time.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Particentral View Post
                          There is NO REASON a shampoo without medical properties should be left to sit. IT wont help, only wastes time. Wash then use conditioner with heat if you like, but again, not needed.
                          That Is NOT true. Soaking a dog in shampoo for 5-10 minutes allows the shampoo to do a much better job, and often eliminates the need for a second bath. It'll also kill any lurking critters in the coat.

                          Shampoo needs time for the cuticle of the hair shaft to soften up and open. Then it can get in and actually get the coat much cleaner. It's not a waste of time to allow a product time to do the job intended. And if you take that time used while the dog is soaking to fill out your groom card or clean/organize/do something productive, it's not a waste of time at all.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Petekids View Post
                            Has the dog been spayed or neutered in the last 6 months?

                            Some of my dogs (LH doxies) get the yucky neuter/spay frizzies shortly after they're fixed. On one of the other lists I'm on, someone recommended using Pantene's Nature Fusion conditioner for my girl's fluffy, frizzy, formerly gorgeous coat - it worked wonders! It's not like it was when she was showing (shes's a 4 year old AKC Champ), but it sure is a vast improvement from what it was a few months ago.
                            You hit the nail on the head with the neuter coat frizzies. We see that a lot. One of my LH doxies has a TON of neuter coat. The only thing that really helps it to pluck it. And my hands don't handle doing a lot of plucking, so he looks like a puff ball most of the time.

                            But I don't think neuter coat is probably something you're going to see on a Maltese. It's just not that type of coat.

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                            • #15
                              I also think this is an internal problem, and more testing should be done. There are so many possibilities, from interna;/external parasites to exocrine pancreatic insufficiency. Some of them are often tested for because they're so common, like worms, but on the other hand, EPI for example, isn't usually included in the regular battery of tests. Some things you have to go looking for.

                              I'd suggest she get a second opinion. A new set of eyes sometimes picks up things that have been missed.

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