For all you poodle breeders.

[Poodlestar]

I have a question... what happens when you breed a parti poodle to a phantom? Will you get partis and phantoms or are the genes different and you get abstracts?

[Particentral]

I have never done that, but I will tell you what I was told about Parti breeding and what my experience has been.

I recently bred my tricolor poodle (Marked like a tri cocker) to a cream. I got cream, black and phantom.

I was told if I bred to black I would get partis. Not sure I believe that, but the person who told me that is pretty good at color based breedings. My tri's mom was a parti and her dad is a phantom, SO...her litter was almost all tricolor.

[macypeep]

Genetics lesson

the parti gene is totally separate from the phantom gene. so if your parti carries a phantom gene and the dog you breed to also carries the phantom gene you will get phantoms. so both dogs have to carry the phantom gene to get phantoms regardless of the actuall color of the dogs being bred. likewise with the partis. both dogs have to carry the parti gene to get partis. you can take 2 solid dogs and get partis or phantoms if the solid dogs both carried for the same genes be it parti or phantom. you really have to know you dogs pedigrees pretty well if your trying to get partis or phantoms. and a little gossip never hurts. alot of people have tried hiding partis and/or phantoms because alot of people dont approve of them. both can now be shown in UKC conformation events. if you have the dogs registered names I may be able to help you out as to the background and what you may get in a litter.

[Poodlestar]

that's what I thought

I assumed the phantom gene worked the same way as the parti gene.

My girl is Carolaine's Buttermilk Pancake

And i'm not sure what the registered name of the male is but his parents are

Webster's Barkfest at Tiffanys, and Webster's Sterling Surprise

I don't think there's phantom in my gir's background. At least not in recent generations anyway.

[Poodlestar]

I lied

I found a phantom on my dog's sire's, and dam's side...

[Helly]

[QUOTE=macypeep;396984]the parti gene is totally separate from the phantom gene. so if your parti carries a phantom gene and the dog you breed to also carries the phantom gene you will get phantoms. so both dogs have to carry the phantom gene to get phantoms regardless of the actuall color of the dogs being bred. likewise with the partis. both dogs have to carry the parti gene to get partis. you can take 2 solid dogs and get partis or phantoms if the solid dogs both carried for the same genes be it parti or phantom. you really have to know you dogs pedigrees pretty well if your trying to get partis or phantoms. QUOTE]

In addition, if both parents are parti, you can't get a solid colored pup. The series responsible for spotting is the S series, with full color being dominant. If the dog has the S gene, it's full colored. If it's spotted or white with or without head markings, it can't hide the S, so it can't produce a solid puppy unless the other half of the equation is a solid color dog.

Make sense?

[macypeep]

you actually can get a solid white out a breeding of 2 partis. genetically they are white on white partis but "look" solid white.

[macypeep]

poodlestar

your dogs both have phantoms in their background. so "if" they both carry the gene, which is possible, you could absolutley produce phantoms from this breeding.

[itsgot2bme]

A little OT but does anyone know of any breeders trying to breed better quality phantoms of show in the UKC? If so would someone provide me a link? I would be interested in doing this in the future.

[Poodle Mom]

Poodle Star:

The poodle that you are talking about are from my breeding. Who are you talking to that has this male?

[edderland]

Also a pattern may no show on the pedigree, but in the siblings of the dog on the pedigree; for instance, a black dog might have several parti colored littermates and carry the gene without showing it, and the pedigree would not hint at it.
Deidre

[Particentral]

I was going to say I have also had solid whites from parti to parti. You will find they often have spotted skin. WHICH is a Parti indicator.....my male that was bred to my tri is out of one of the biggest kennels in the country and out of a top male (I cannot say the names, under contract, don't ask). We got a phantom out of him. Those genes are widespread. My tri color is a neat little dog and I was told that no matter what we do she will likely throw a few phantom markings every time as she is factored for brown points.

[macypeep]

websites

try poodlepedigree.com you can research tons of pedis and do a vertical pedi with the colors option that will show you any listed partis or phantoms in your pedi, health testing etc. whispering pines poodles is working on producing quality/ health tested phantoms, not an easy task. you can search her site for lots of info. if you should contact her she is honest/very blunt but is very careful with her breedings. I've known her for eons. you can also check out the parti poodle world for lots of phantom info. theres lots genetic info along with pics. hope this helps.

[Helly]

you actually can get a solid white out a breeding of 2 partis. genetically they are white on white partis but "look" solid white.

Um, I don't think so. What you're getting is an extreme piebald that was hidden under the piebald gene.

White dogs are really colored dogs. They just have a gene that supresses the expression of color. Piebald limits the color to patches, extreme piebald either completely supresses the color, or limits it to a head marking.

[macypeep]

?

sorry, I think it was genetically cream on white was what i meant to say. but they "look" solid