Pedigree dogs exposed

[pudel]

I know ther is another thread on this. It's the UKC and all.

But my own poodle was line bred. Andre and his sister are results of this practice by a BYB. I still have Andre with multiple things always going on with his health. His sis, Sophia died of IMHA 2 yrs ago. Broke my heart!!!

After seeing this documentary, I see exactly how I was an ignorant purchaser of purebred dogs. Eligible for AKC registration. My 2 poos father is also their grandfather. My still living Poo has the worst immune system of any living creature in this house. He has been treated for recurring ear infections that are bacterial, not fungal. And just wast treated for an inflamed esophagus. DOG FLU? NO They never said it was that. But he still isn't totally back to himself. And the ear infection keeps coming back. I truly believe he is the product of bad breeding, and many other poodles out there carry the bad genes that he has. This lady bred a lot of dogs. Thank God I altered both of them.

The documentary wasn't as graphic as I was told it would be. I found it very informative. I would like to know how you all feel about UKC,. People here with Pits register under UKC because they can't register under AKC.
I have a lot of questions about breeding at this point. About AKC, about Breeders, about how puppy mills can sell AKC pups etc.
Fill me in guys!

[odette]

not all line breeding in breeding is bad, some great dogs come from this practice! the key is to only buy from reputable breeders, that do all the breed testing, pay more upfront, save in the long run. i've had heavily linebreed dogs with no problems, i've had out crosses and muts, line breeding is a great way to insure certain qualitys,IF the breeder does their homework on what lines produce what. So Sorry you had problems, but not all in breeding or line breeding produces problems.

[SwissNChow]

I do feel there are some very responsible breeders that have chosen to breed with UKC registration rather than AKC registration. However, there are many who breed with UKC rather than AKC because UKC is not as competative. There are others who breed with UKC because they are no longer eligible to breed with AKC because they have either been banned from AKC or they choose not to follow AKCs rules. AKC doesn't have many rules, but they do require breeders to allow kennel inspections and inspections of the paperwork all AKC breeders are required to keep and they require permanent identification (tatoo or microchip) of all breeding stock and DNA identification profiles for any dogs that are used frequently in breeding programs. The regulations are simple, straight forward, inexpensive and not at all confusing, but there are many people who choose not to "jump through AKC's hoops."

There are some breeds that are simply not recognized by the AKC, and many of those breeds are registered with UKC. The American Pit Bull Terrier is indeed one of them.

Yes, there are some questionable breeding facilities that do use AKC for registration. Keep in mind that if their facilities are reasonably clean and in reasonable repair, their dogs are in good condition and they keep all their paperwork complete and up to date, microchip their dogs and DNA profile the frequently used, AKC will register their puppies. AKC does not take the position of deciding who can breed what, how often or when.

[stewiedog]

The problem with your dogs wasn't the breeding per say. It was the lack of proper health screening. I also don't believe that breeding to be linebreeding, that was inbreeding 2 dogs with genetic health problems, by an uneducated BYB that only saw they had a couple dogs, and could make $$$.
MOst of the BEST dogs in the ring are CAREFULLY linebred, with health screenings from good breeders, that care about bettering their breed. Remember I said most, a few breeders in the ring only care about looks, and nothing more. From my experiance when I was showing, and breeding everyone I came across in my breeds cared, and did all the health tests rec'd by the parent clubs for our breeds. Some even did more than what was rec'd for the breed.
In the conformation world if you want a certain look or "type" in your dogs you do careful, thought out linebreeding of health, sound dogs. If you total "out" crossed breeding, even if they are healthy you loose that type, or "look" that says this is a "(insert kennel name)" dog. Judges learn what different kennels "look" like.
"Line"breeding, "In"breeding, and "Out"crossing are ALL wrong, if you don't do your research, and health screenings. Even "in"breeding in some instances are OK depending on the relation.

GO AHEAD GET MAD... JUST MY FEELINGS, AND OPINIONS...THATS WHAT A FORUM IS FOR.

[fiveoclockdog]

My brain hurts.

[Smart-n-Pretty]

When I read the title I thought this thread was about dog food.

[Yorkie_Gal]

There's a difference between "line"breeding and INbreeding. I was very concerned about linebreeding when I went to my first breeder for my yorkie. She took the time and went over the papers with me, and explained the reasons and practices. I am now somewhat ok with it, the inbreeding I'm not ok with.A father also being a grandfather??? yikes!!!!! I picture three headed, cross eyed pups that will someday become a "designer" breed and sell for hundreds of dollars.

JMHO

[dogspaw]

"Line"breeding, "In"breeding, and "Out"crossing are ALL wrong, if you don't do your research, and health screenings.

GO AHEAD GET MAD... JUST MY FEELINGS, AND OPINIONS...THATS WHAT A FORUM IS FOR.

Agree!

[Helly]

Let's see if I can clear up some confustion. First, I don't think the documentary had anything to say about the UKC. In England, I believe the regeristy is simply called the Kennel Club, but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure, though, that it's not UKC.

On the other hand, UKC, in this country anyway, is the United Kennel Club and is located in Kalamazoo, Mi. They're workings are quite a bit different than AKC, but they are a ligitimate registry.

Now, the issue of linebreeding and inbreeding. For all intents, they're the same thing. Some people reserve the term inbreeding for very closely related breedings; mother to son, father to daughter, brother to sister. But linebreeding is still inbreeding.

Neither practice is evil. The problems come from breeding animals that are not suitable for breeding, period. Concentrating genes is good if they're good genes, or bad if they're bad genes. If you already know you have bad genes, there's not a lot of sense in breeding the animal, but we all know it happens all the time.

[alabamagroomer]

my frustration....

I always tell my clients that a registration paper (CKC, AKC, UKC, AABR) is only as good as the breeders selling the dog. I have seen wonderfully sound CKC dogs and I have seen ****** AKCs. If a breeder is responsible and tests and stands behind their dogs, I don't care about the papers UNLESS you are breeding/showing. There was a local breeder that was in good standing with AKC, but she would toss 10 females (yorkies, poodles, poms) in a big cage and toss 3 males (a yorkie and a pom and a poodle). If the poodle ended up pregnant, she sent in the papers of the male poodle as dad. People didn't catch it until the pups were 4-5 months old and then they were attached. She did this for about 15 years before someone reported her and AKC stepped in.

I also tell my clinets that until they are educated about breeds, puppy mills, BYB and even "good" breeders will produce **** because that is where the $$$ is. It is the responsibility of the public to be educated and aware BEFORE purchasing dogs or there will never be an end of kill-shelters and puppy mills.

I do blame the breeders for their part, but it is a 2 way street. EDUCATION IS THE KEY!!!

Sorry, I am getting off my soap box now and getting busy!!!

[borzoimom]

I too totally agree with Stewiedog's post.

[babbrook]

.

The only difference between Line-Breeding and In-breeding Is that Line-breeding is purposly breeding off a paticular dog or known line of dogs. It is still in-breeding but in-breeding with a purpose. When breeds were new the tool was used to lock in desired traits within the breeds being created. Why modern day Show breeders continue to do this is beyond me. The false idea that they can breed out certian traits is impossiable when you are looking at billions of possibilities of genes matching up to create each induvidual dog. The tool is like candy too much is harmful. Gentic screening means nothing if you are bottle necking a line and creating more lethal ressesives. If genetic screening and other test were full proof in ending the condtions they were meant to end. Those condtions would be gone by now.But they are not. The more inbred a dog is the lower the immune system.

As for terms such as Puppy Mill or Back yard breeder. Or unethical Breeder. Let me remind all the Groomers in the country where their clients are coming from. How many of you groom known designer breeds? or Very healthy purebreds who do not meet conformation ring show type? How many of you actually groom show dogs?

Mud slinging comes very easy. But if we were to continue bashing breeders. And legislation was created to end supposed puppy mills and BYB. Because believe me after they get the commercial breeders and BYB they will come full force after the hobby show breeders.
How many Groomers do you think this country will need? How many veterinarians and vet tech's will be needed? Right now the HSUS has a ballot intuitive out to end supposed Puppy Mills. On it, it describes a Puppy Mill as any Breeder who has more then 10 covered breeding dogs. It says nothing about if they show, studied genetics, housed them in mansions, fed them prime rib, willed billions of dollars to them in a will. All it says is 10 covered breeding dogs are large scale commercial puppy mills.

And we can thank our selves for helping the HSUS , PETA and all the other crazy to teach the public the horrors of these fabled Puppy Mills that in all honesty 99.9% of you have never witnessed.

Sure we all have stories. I have tons myself of the haphazard breeders. The customers with the ill health, ill tempered dogs they insisted on breeding. But in reality even though they stick out like sore s, and leave a lasting impression. They are not the majority.

Yes we all groomed animals we know were messed up due to bad breeding. And I am sure the more experienced seen that bad breeding come from every known source. not just BYB, not just pet stores, not just commercial breeders. The oldest dogs I ever groomed were in their 20's both pet store puppies.

Because of all the mud slinging the real solutions are not being found

I remember a time when groomers were under the attack by the animal rights movement. Why are we helping them to destroy our client base?

[4Sibes]

And I, for one, would find a different career in a heartbeat if getting rid of this misery meant I wouldn't have a job.

Me too. And this is the ONLY job I've known for over 30 years.
(Prolly wouldn't have a new career in customer service though. )

[vjw]

pudel, did you see the report that the UK RSPCA did after Pedigree Dogs Exposed aired in the UK? I started a thread on this forum:

http://www.petgroomerforums.com/chat/showthread.php?t=33001

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I doubt groomers will ever have to worry about jobs. We love our dogs too much.

If puppymills are put out of business, maybe there'll be fewer dogs euthanized in shelters because there's a pet overpopulation problem. About half of the dogs and cats who enter "kill" shelters are euthanized. I know some of them are euthanized because of severe behavior problems, but some are euthanized just because there aren't enough homes for them.

It doesn't make sense to me that we are euthanizing millions of mutts (who MAY be healthier), yet we're breeding purebreds with all these genetic problems because of the small gene pool.

[odette]

Me too. And this is the ONLY job I've known for over 30 years.
(Prolly wouldn't have a new career in customer service though. )

me too! and I would hire sibes for custimer service, they'ed know where they stood!