I need some suggestions

[diamienono]

I did a little terrier mix today that I have done like 6 times and he gets worse each time. He hates to have his legs and feet done. I put him on the GH. He pulls his legs constantly and can still bite me when I try the front ones. I decided to scissor his legs today to see if it was easier than trying to use the clippers. Well the answer was no. He ended up getting nicked by the scissors. No blood thank god, but him owenr is one of those that is like oh my baby waby um poor little snookums. I am afraid to really hold on to those tiny legs. I have tried scruffing him (gently mind you) and he screamed like a baby. I know I did not hurt him, him is just a spoiled wittle momma's baby. What else can I do to make this groom easier?

[Raggs]

Make his mom do it... LOL

He's a spoiled little brat that thinks he can get away with anything and his human is just reinforcing that.

The trainer I know used to groom and she was working on Pom one day with that same attitude. She finally had enough and her years of training took over and she alpha rolled that little guy. Right after she did it, it hit her that he was just a small dog. She was used to alpha rolling large dogs. But since she had already done it she had to hold him down until he stopped trying to attack her. He was a sweet dog to her after that. She felt horrible for doing it to a little dog but was glad she didn't get bit again. She then decided to hang up her shears and just be a trainer. She's so scared to hurt a dog.

[JJk]

I usually ask the owner to brush the dog at least every second day, the owner doesn't need to really brush out, just let the dog know it has to be brushed/touched. Either the dog comes back with a more acceptable attitude or they won't show up on my door again--- I am fine with both results.

[SiotehCat]

Hmm?

Ok, I dont mean to sound stupid here but Ive heard the term "alpha roll" before and im not entirely sure what it is. How is this done? I dont ever plan on doing it so dont worry about that.

[Mamabearwith2]

Ok, I dont mean to sound stupid here but Ive heard the term "alpha roll" before and im not entirely sure what it is. How is this done? I dont ever plan on doing it so dont worry about that.

It's when you flip the dog over on his back and put your hand on his chest and "show him who's boss." It doesn't hurt the dog, it's what older dogs to do younger ones anyway. Sometimes you'll see a mother doing that to her puppies. It's like a good, old fashioned spanking!

[Helly]

Diamie, I'd start using desensitizing techniques. First put down your clippers and scissors. Then grasp the leg at the elbow and quickly run your hand down the leg and over the foot. Talk quietly while you do this; "Stay. Staaay. Good dog" Repeat several times. He'll probably stop trying to pull the leg away. At that point, slow down. Run your hand down his leg slowly. Lift the leg and hold it in a light grip for a few seconds and release it. Pick the leg up, run your hand down to his foot and hold his foot lightly. When he can tolerate that, massage his foot. If at any point he starts to struggle, go back to step one and do the process all over again. When you feel he's ready, comb his leg. Then scissor.

This sounds like it takes a lot of time. Usually it only takes a couple of minutes per leg. Remember to praise in a low tone, with a quiet voice.

[luvpups]

We call that puppy submission training. I have used that on my own dogs. and you just hold them there till they give in and relax. It has worked for me, so I would suggest trying it.

[Kim in SD]

Wolfing

I call it wolfing. When a dog is rolled over, it has two choices at that point. ONe is to submiss, the other is to bite. Be prepared for the latter, its stressed, most will not submiss at this point and it is cruel to do this being a groomer. Try wolfing a 10 yr old cocker or lhaso thats mean and see what happens. I totally agree w/wolfing if your a trainer or an owner. There is also something called a mini wolf where u get the dogs attention, usually by gently grabbing the muzzle, stare it down, and sternly say NO. Again, being a groomer that's not your job. The situation is different in a grooming environment, these methods will get you bit. You cannot expect a dog thats fearful of grooming to submiss w/this method, period.

[Dawn125]

I've turned over the occassional naughty dog and it does help. I have a little shihtzu I groom that this has helped with. Sometimes after I dry her I carry her in my arms on her back and look at her eyes while carrying her to my grooming table. She immediately gets a little nervous and looks away from me. I think it does help to remind the naughty ones that they are not the boss.

[Kim in SD]

I forgot to add. As always Helly has the best advice. This works, I've had to do this w/the scared ones.
Also, I don't know if this is a good way, (maybe some of you have some input on this) but if what Helly says doesn't work, I have put a towel around the neck and then they cant turn far enough to bite?? This has worked with an extremely aggressive Lhaso I was grooming once.

[Wisconsin]

Don't try the alpha roll

First of all, there is a trick to it and you don't want to add more stress to an already stressed dog. You really have to think this through. Think of the age of dog, reason they're insecure, etc... The alpha roll is not a quick fix. Not every dog will submit and it could turn into a wrestling match.

You don't want to get bit or injure a dog. This is not what grooming is about. If you were not trained to do this, don't start now. Leave it to someone who has been taught to do this correctly.

My dog is an old granny and if someone rolled her incorrectly, they could fracture her weak spine. She has degenerative disc issues and arthritic spine and the last thing I would need is a slipped disc or fractured spine. Please think long and hard before using this method on a dog.

[diamienono]

I am very familiar with the domanant down and have used it on my own dogs. I don't feel that doing it on a dog that I see every 6 weeks will be a good thing. I don't think that it would help in this situation. IMO that is something that should be done to your own dogs, not one that you come in contact with every few weeks. There is no consistancy to establish the Alpha role.

[travelinaj]

I've only every rolled really bad puppies. And I think I've only done that twice. It worked both times and now they are fine to groom. I have a couple nasties that I groom and the groomer's helper helps but as you say, you can still get bit. In those instances I also use an e-collar, that way I can hold and work on the front legs and I don't have to worry about getting nailed. Most times they give up after they figure out they can't reach me.

[RoosMom]

I agree with Wisconsin & Diamienono (long)

Putting on my dog trainer's hat for this one. ;-) A true 'alpha roll' is nothing like what most humans interpret it as. There is no actual physical force used- it is an open canine mouth to the side or back of the neck, sometimes just a head over the top of the neck. The body language/posturing of the dominant canine causes the other canine to either drop to the ground and submit willingly, or challenge. MANY people have been severely injured trying the 'human version' of this, especially if it's a large dog. There are many other ways to express dominance without resorting to that.

The biggest factor? Your mental/emotional state when dealing with a problem dog. Know Cesar Millan? 'Calm, assertive energy.' Sounds too simple, but it works. I have two mini white schnauzers I have been grooming for about two years. When I first started doing them, they were a groomer's nightmare. They were fearful, and would bite without hesitation. Everything I usually tried made it worse- one of them went into a total hissy fit with the muzzle on once while I was trying to cut her nails, smacked her nose on the grooming arm, and gave herself a nose bleed. Of course, she was flailing around, so the blood went everywhere.

FInally, I thought 'the h*ll with it, might as well try it Cesar's way'. The next time they came in, I went outside and sat for afew minutes before I started on them. I got into a relaxed, very matter-of-fact state of mind. I did things with them slowly, quietly, with a minimum of talking. When I did talk, it was almost a whisper. They looked worried, but I got everything done without a muzzle, and without a fight, and only used the single grooming loop to restrain them. I have never had a problem with them since I started this little ritual with them.

With this little pain in the butt you've got to deal with, she's probably not scared, just used to getting what she wants if she throws a tantrum. I would still handle it the same way. You pick up a foot- she starts fussing and carrying on- you say nothing, just keep holding onto the foot, and CALMLY wait. When she stops for a moment because it's not working, just say, "are you done?" in a neutral tone. Trust me, this DOES work. When I still had employees, they saw this and started doing it themselves. A dog would start arguing about nails being clipped, etc. They'd just calmly stand there, silent, waiting for the temper tantrum to pass. I would always grin when I'd hear, "Are you done?" and then it would be quiet at the other table.

If you can't get the dog done with this method, or other reasonable ways of coping, then simply refuse to groom the dog. I do training, but when I'm grooming, I'm not getting paid for that, I'm getting paid to groom. Training fees are alot higher, and it's the owner's responsibility, not the groomer's, to deal with serious behavioral issues.

[diamienono]

I think part of my problem is that the last few times I have done him, I am in such a hurry to either get to the next groom and get home lol. I will try to schedule more time for him and wait it out see how it goes. Calm assertive, not pissed and bitchy huh?