Politics in Competitions?

[Poodlefluff]

I have been wanting to enter a grooming competition for years, but now from what I am hearing it is all about who knows who and who spends the most money, is who wins. I would love to go compete in Hershey but will I have a chance if no one has heard of me or I don't bring my whole grooming salon along lavishly? Will I be judged on my grooming skills, or just passed over like a nobody? My friend told me that recently a young man we know did a perfect groom on a poodle and I have seen his grooming and I believe it he is awesome and he did not even get an award of merit. A lesser quality groom took the competition. She was in the middle of the same contest and packed up and left because she saw what was going on. I believe she knows what she is talking about because she has won many competitions.
Now secondly she told me that a show trim will not win a competition because the judges don't know how to judge a dog done in a show trim with the neck all hair sprayed up.That you have to scissor a sporting trim, with a scissored to knot to win. Is this true and I wonder why? I have only been to one competition and I didn't enter into it because it was $100 to enter and you only could win a prize of $100. She told me to wait to enter a contest that has special prizes for novice or never competited. Not that I am saying I am better than anyone or have a chance in Hadies at actually winning my first time out, but I was just wondering if anyone else thought that this was true about the politics. I mean in conformation dog shows it is highly political if you don't advertise your dog in show magazines, you almost never get a group placement. One writer actually got suspended for writing about a judge giving wins to dogs that didn't deserve them. And professional handlers will usually beat an owner handled dog just because the judge sees the handler every weekend and has no idea who the owner handler is. I wish a judge would judge the dog not the other end of the lead. Any ways Just Wondering what ya'll thought?

[pamperedpups]

I've shown horses for years and as a result have heard years worth of sour graps and complaints about politics in shows. A common gripe is that professional trainers and handlers usually win over owner-handlers and truth be told, they often deserve to. Professional trainers and handlers know their stuff and do everything possible to present their animals at their best. These people are often fitting and showing animals for a living and at the very least for their reputation and that almost always means getting a lot more serious about it than the average owner-handler. After years in the ring, I've seen placements go both ways. Sometimes, a handler wins when they know they shouldn't have and other times, it's an owner-handler in that situation. Big investments in advertising, etc. can certainly help, and judges are only human, but even the best prepped and presented animal might not be at it's best on a particular show day.

With all that in mind, my advice is to show because you want to and not let the idea of losing for whatever reason stop you. Odds are, you will win someday and deserve it. Know that things always look different from a judge's perspective and there's often some key ingredient missing from an otherwise spectacular presentation and that ingredient usually differs from one judge to another.

[furrybestjob]

I'm interested in what people have to say about this as well. I've heard similair things as well. The other thing that bothers me about competition is that it seems like alot of it has to do with the quality of the dog that you get, not necessarily the quality of grooming that is being performed. I could do a perfect groom on my poodle (I'm dreaming here about the perfect groom), but her coat is not the caliber of the ones that I see being used, and I can't imagine placing with her. In my opinion, it is more difficult to scissor a less than perfect coat and make it look good, then taking a awesome coat and making it look good. I don't want to be in a ring with people making comments like "Why would she bring a dog like that to groom?"

Oh, in response to your show trim question. I have seen people do the continental with the tie up. As a matter of fact, at last years show in Rhode island the winner was a groomer that did a show trim. (and why do they call them show TRIMS, lol!)

[Deana]

I have been wanting to enter a grooming competition for years, but now from what I am hearing it is all about who knows who and who spends the most money, is who wins. I would love to go compete in Hershey but will I have a chance if no one has heard of me or I don't bring my whole grooming salon along lavishly? Will I be judged on my grooming skills, or just passed over like a nobody? My friend told me that recently a young man we know did a perfect groom on a poodle and I have seen his grooming and I believe it he is awesome and he did not even get an award of merit. A lesser quality groom took the competition. She was in the middle of the same contest and packed up and left because she saw what was going on. I believe she knows what she is talking about because she has won many competitions.
Now secondly she told me that a show trim will not win a competition because the judges don't know how to judge a dog done in a show trim with the neck all hair sprayed up.That you have to scissor a sporting trim, with a scissored to knot to win. Is this true and I wonder why? I have only been to one competition and I didn't enter into it because it was $100 to enter and you only could win a prize of $100. She told me to wait to enter a contest that has special prizes for novice or never competited. Not that I am saying I am better than anyone or have a chance in Hadies at actually winning my first time out, but I was just wondering if anyone else thought that this was true about the politics. I mean in conformation dog shows it is highly political if you don't advertise your dog in show magazines, you almost never get a group placement. One writer actually got suspended for writing about a judge giving wins to dogs that didn't deserve them. And professional handlers will usually beat an owner handled dog just because the judge sees the handler every weekend and has no idea who the owner handler is. I wish a judge would judge the dog not the other end of the lead. Any ways Just Wondering what ya'll thought?

I hope that is not the case for as much as I compete. I know that people question sometimes why one dog wins and another doesn't. It could be a dog that looks beautiful, but the profile is incorrect, scissor/clipper marks you can't see from out of the ring, off balance etc.

I can say that is is good to wait to compete at a place like Atlanta and enter first timers if you can. You only get one chance to do so. I'm sorry your friend had a bad experience and I hope that it wouldn't happen again. You know you can always bring your questions and complaints to the judges and show coordinators. They should be able to help put you at ease.

[petstylist]

I competed heavily several years (ok more like 8) ago.
I tried competing with my then mini poodle puppy in a "show trim" tied up topknot and all. It really depends on who is the judge, and I wouldnt even try it if your dogs topknot and pack coat arent stiff enough to stand up with minimal hairspray.
I say find a competion that has a novice/beginner classes and go for it!
I wish they had those divisions when I was competing, I was stuck in Open and cant go back now!
Tammy

[RevWind]

I competed as a first-timer at Intergroom last year. It was definitely an uncomfortable rush. There seemed to be only 2 classes: the top of the line, and everyone else. So half of the people in the everyone else category had their whole salon, helpers, etc. and they seemed to know each other. For me, it was my grooming box (with only the necessary stuff), me, and my boss's mother's former show dog. I thought I had done pretty well (though my only goal was to finish in the 2.5 hour time limit) but I didn't win. I got a boat load of shampoo samples and a free Les Pooch brush. Getting that brush I think was worth the entry fee. It's paid for itself many times over. I was HIGHLY disappointed that all the judges disappeared after I put my dog back. I really wanted to ask their advice, but the show was closing up for the day and no judges were to be found. I do think they ought to have a seperate category for those who have never competed before. I recognized a few from Hershey the previous year. I doubt I'll make Atlanta but I don't know if I'll compete again in Intergroom. I was hogtied into it in the first place.

If there's a comp based purely on talent, I'd enter again, but not if it's based on who you know.

[misscatahoula]

I would love to try grooming competitions some day. I have the same concerns about judging,etc. My uneducated guess would be that it is probably alot like conformation judges. Some are impartial to who's handling/grooming, and some judges aren't worth going under unless you're very well known. I groom and handle dogs on a smaller scale than the f/t pros, but still do quite well in the ring. I think if you can hold out to find a good dog with a really nice coat and decide on a trim you feel very competent in doing, you'll probably do well. I'm also assuming a positive attitude and presentation makes a difference too. I think I would go to a competition as a spectator first to get a better idea of how things run, so I'm not overwhelmed by the newness of everything and trying to groom at the same time.

[bubblesaway]

I have been wanting to enter a grooming competition for years, but now from what I am hearing it is all about who knows who and who spends the most money, is who wins. I would love to go compete in Hershey but will I have a chance if no one has heard of me or I don't bring my whole grooming salon along lavishly? Will I be judged on my grooming skills, or just passed over like a nobody? My friend told me that recently a young man we know did a perfect groom on a poodle and I have seen his grooming and I believe it he is awesome and he did not even get an award of merit. A lesser quality groom took the competition. She was in the middle of the same contest and packed up and left because she saw what was going on. I believe she knows what she is talking about because she has won many competitions.
Now secondly she told me that a show trim will not win a competition because the judges don't know how to judge a dog done in a show trim with the neck all hair sprayed up.That you have to scissor a sporting trim, with a scissored to knot to win. Is this true and I wonder why? I have only been to one competition and I didn't enter into it because it was $100 to enter and you only could win a prize of $100. She told me to wait to enter a contest that has special prizes for novice or never competited. Not that I am saying I am better than anyone or have a chance in Hadies at actually winning my first time out, but I was just wondering if anyone else thought that this was true about the politics. I mean in conformation dog shows it is highly political if you don't advertise your dog in show magazines, you almost never get a group placement. One writer actually got suspended for writing about a judge giving wins to dogs that didn't deserve them. And professional handlers will usually beat an owner handled dog just because the judge sees the handler every weekend and has no idea who the owner handler is. I wish a judge would judge the dog not the other end of the lead. Any ways Just Wondering what ya'll thought?

Well I will chime in here for abit.. I thought the same way as you did. However I did place a couple times and I was a nobody from NJ.. With a very diffifuat coat with a no shot from hell to win.. BUT I did! I didn't know anyone either! Now I have made many freinds and boy what wonderful people they are.. Don't miss judge what one person says about anyone or anything.. Everybody in the ring will help you, I know You just have to ask them..

I now do a dog in a Show Trim with a sprayed up topknot, Hes a baby and has puppy coat. I know I won't win just yet with him but my butt is out there every chance I get to get all the help I can.. It will play off in do time ( I hope)

As far as the guy not winning, Well he could of had a mat or hair in the pads. Maybe something that you couldn't see.. Just because the dog looks perfect doesn't mean it was.. Sometimes people slack on the basics and perfect the trim... But most judges look at the basics first!

Each judge perfers different things , One may judge heavily on the basic's while the other wants those paralell lines.. You need to research your judge and see what they like...

Intergroom well I didn't like competing there either, It was my first time too.. I think they should break it down to 3 division like the others.. But I will be back this year.

As far as the money goes.. Think of it as a Payed lesson in grooming.. Make sure you track down the judge and find out what you need to do to improve!!

I love competing, I will compete as long as I can.. ( just started last year).. I have been told my dog is fat, My dogs coat stinks, ect, but I did place with him under someone else...

So I would forget what you have been told, get out there and see for your self.. Once you start competing its hard to stop!

PS I need spell check! Were is it?

[bubblesaway]

I'm interested in what people have to say about this as well. I've heard similair things as well. The other thing that bothers me about competition is that it seems like alot of it has to do with the quality of the dog that you get, not necessarily the quality of grooming that is being performed. I could do a perfect groom on my poodle (I'm dreaming here about the perfect groom), but her coat is not the caliber of the ones that I see being used, and I can't imagine placing with her. In my opinion, it is more difficult to scissor a less than perfect coat and make it look good, then taking a awesome coat and making it look good. I don't want to be in a ring with people making comments like "Why would she bring a dog like that to groom?"

Oh, in response to your show trim question. I have seen people do the continental with the tie up. As a matter of fact, at last years show in Rhode island the winner was a groomer that did a show trim. (and why do they call them show TRIMS, lol!)

Furry, Have you tried the jazzing yet on your little poodle?? She will be fine to compete with.. My little guys puppy hair is almost gone, so yours shouldn't be that far behind.. She had a nice coat coming in from what I seen in RI with Lisa that monday.. She stood a whole lot better then my guy too! LOL..

[Deana]

The more you compete the more people you meet and the better your access gets to dogs.

I started competing in 2005 and I did Atlanta for my first competion. I won 1st timer Best in Show and was hooked.

What I have learned is some of what was said above. Alot of the judges want to see short nails, as short as you can get them. If you can grind them even better and they don't want to see dirt in the nails. Ears CLEAN, and plucked if they should. Private area clean.

Here is where alot of people screw up soley by forgetting. Tell the judge if the dog you are competing with is a dog you have not groomed before. If you do a beautiful job they will take that into consideration. Tell them EVERY llittle thing wromg with the dog, example...had a hot spot, sparce hair in a certian spot, that privates can only be taken so short if not close, old dog, youing dog etc. Everything you tell them can help you. Just keep it to what is important.

I can say this. I do ALOT of free grooming. I have gotten the chance to have unlimited access to every dog I compete with for free in exchange for yearly free grooming. Like I said about meeting people too, someone else may have a dog to help you out in exchange for you helping them with one.
When you compete in Entry (C division) or Intermediate (B) you can get away with dogs that are pet, less coat, and faults etc. The judges do expect by the time you make it to Open (A) to have better quality dogs but most dogs are still pet dogs.

I can honestly say that I have never felt that a judgement was unfair. Ask for a critque. See what they would have liked to see different. Sometimes they'll tell you the decesion was hard and it wasn't that you necessarily did something wrong, just hard to judge if they all look good. You can't win everytime or it wouldn't be a competition.

If you ever see me out there I am more than happy to answer any question if I can.

[Mary1980]

I apologize if this sounds stupid. How do you get the dogs you groom for competitions? Do you bring your own pet, borrow someone's dog or do they have dogs at the competition? Thanks in advance!

[bubblesaway]

I apologize if this sounds stupid. How do you get the dogs you groom for competitions? Do you bring your own pet, borrow someone's dog or do they have dogs at the competition? Thanks in advance!

You need to supply your own dogs.. Wether you borrow them or have your own.. They do not supply dogs for you..

[Deana]

Almost every dog I compete with belongs to a client or one of my groomers. I do borrow dogs from other groomers locally or from other states when I travel.

[Groominator]

take a chance

I did my first competition last year in october the Iowa show. It is very small and I was told that is how you want to start. Find a small show with judges that have a great reputation for being kind. I placed with both dogs on my first time and got great advice. I was shocked and had a great time! But I definately think the smaller shows are a lot less pressure! Don't be discouraged! I agree that coat makes a difference. The A group dogs are far superior to B division. If you don't have a great coat to work on your placement will not be as high. So find great dogs and jump in there. The entry fees are much smaller and the number of contestants is as well. Good luck and hopefully we all will meet sometime in the ring.

[winterroo]

I know I am new to this board, but am not new to the grooming world in any way. Sorry this is so long, but I feel I have valuable information for those starting out being that I have been there!

Poodlefluff, let me just put my two cents in having been on both sides of the coin. Yes, there CAN be politics, but understand that we have all at one point been the low man on the totem pole. I, for one, worked my way up to where I am from being a nobody-and won and lost multiple times as a nobody. You just have to pay your dues and GET CRITIQUES!!!!!! Get to know people and ask questions of those whose work you admire. I can't stress that enough-this is what has helped me get to where I am today. Not all judges judge based on politics. I am pretty sure I know what show you are talking about, and if it is that particular show, I know exactly who you are talking about. I personally don't think it was unfair. We all feel slighted at times, but there is likely a particular reason that one person was put up over another. I sometimes wonder as well why a certain person was put up, but it is likely for a reason that I can't see being that I didn't go over the dog. Do go to a small show for your first time! It is much easier to get a critique that way also. You also need to do the trims that win. If you are going to do a banded topknot, you need to execute it exceptionally well from what I have seen. The continental trim is a tough one to execute properly, and if you start talking to breeders, you will find out that you are blind to many things just because the dog looks fancy. I know I was. I wouldn't even want to attempt that trim in the ring because it is very difficult to get right.

I would also like to address the issue of the quality of the dogs. In the beginner and intermediate classes, it is much easier to get away with using a pet quality dog. As you progress, the competition becomes much stiffer and of course the dog that fits the standard (in both grooming and conformation-hey, it is much easier to get the proper profile on a dog that has good conformation) the best is going to win. If you can do a wonderful corrective grooming on a pet quality dog, by all means, go for it, but when you are competing against the best of the best, you need the best. If you just want to compete for fun, it really doesn't matter that much, but if you want to seriously compete and become GroomTeam or whatever, you need that extra edge. I go to dog shows and try to get to know breeders. I have found Springers that way. I bought a Standard Poodle from a breeder/handler that is very active in the show world. I now have access to her dogs (most AKC, CKC, an international champions) as well as all of the people that she knows now too. You have to make the effort to get your foot in the door. My perspective has really changed since I have made the extra effort and proven myself to be worthy of where I am today.

Don't be scared to compete, just go and learn. Go and watch and ask questions. Watch demos. Good Luck!