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Muttmom
07-09-08, 10:12 PM
I've noticed over the last few years an increase in poorly behaved small dogs (mostly Shih Tzu mixes and whatever the current 'toy designer dogs' are these days- not to mention Yorkies). Basically cute little dogs that you know rule the roost at home; basically are treated like babies and not dogs' so when they end up on your table it's usually their first tiem being told 'no' and actually having to listen to a person.

It's getting to a point where I'm seriously considering, if I do change shops, refusing to groom small dogs. I'll admit that my shop is 'end of the line' in our city- we take the dogs who have been kicked out of all the other shops. Regardless ,the bad dogs we get are disproportionatly small breeds. It's incredibly frustrating, and sad, to see dogs exhibiting behaviors that, for th most part, would NEVER be tolerated in a larger breed.

Has anyone else noticed this or is my shop just 'special'?

lvdobes
07-10-08, 03:30 AM
It's not just you. My worst biters are Shih Tzu.

Lisa

Particentral
07-10-08, 05:13 AM
I seem to specialize in "small fluffy white dogs" and have not noticed that at all. Must be an area thing. The little fluffies here are usually well mannered for me anyway. No idea what they are like at home. I do have a few that are bad to the bone (a silver poodle comes to mind instantly!) but overall, they are pretty good.

There are days when I have 10-15 shihtzus and the like in here and not one bad dog in the bunch. You have to remember though....I live in a doodle free zone. We have NEVER seen a goldendoodle or labradoodle in here at all!

lbboop99
07-10-08, 05:54 AM
I have noticed it somewhat here too. I thought it was just me!

winterroo
07-10-08, 05:55 AM
I agree...They act like spoiled little things because people are not treating them like dogs, they are treating them like babies. Look at what is available now for 'puppies'...strollers, front packs, car seats, bumpers and blankets for the kennel, baby exercise mats, etc...as if they need that ****! It is sickening!

belle2930
07-10-08, 06:18 AM
I have been saying this for the past few years!! I would rather see a full day of big dogs then half a day of little ones! IMO most have come from "puppy mills" and a lot of them have hidden health problems. I have seen LOTS of shih mixes and doodles of all kinds. Gotta love Missouri.

RoadRunner
07-10-08, 08:25 AM
I understand that one. Belle, Missouri girl, I'm in Missouri too, right in the middle of "oodle-land" and "shih this and shih that" - all the shih and poo mixtures from puppy mills around here. I feel bad for the dogs, but as the thread is implying, they are a bit wacked in the head and I feel sorry for them as I know it's inbreeding and tough conditions they have come out of. My business gets a lot of different ones, lots of good dogs and some just not with it dogs, and I really am thankful for my customers and their dogs, quite seriously. But the little Shih types are a bit off the wall here and I do think it might be regional. Had one just the other day that was a mess - peed in the bath, pooped in the bath and the grand finale was her making a flying leap off of the grooming table, with loop attached, and since I was in my van with one hand still on the table while I was reaching for something with other hand, I caught this dog literally in mid air, put it back on the table and instantly said, "thank you God!" It could have been such a bad deal, but luckily the timing was split second perfection, again, thank you God and I am not just kidding there. I have tons of patience with the dogs now that I am mobile and no interruptions, etc., so it was only getting good vibes from me, don't know why this dog was so freaked. I have oodles running out of my ears here, they are sweet but not a lot of thought process going on in their heads and perpetual motion, which makes for a difficult groom sometimes, but they are sweet in general and the people in my area are really very nice. By the postings sounds like it is regional stuff maybe, the Shih syndrome, but I can relate.

Airehead Stripper
07-10-08, 09:51 AM
Wow, I was just thinking the same thing about new dogs! I had no problems in the past with puppies but recently I am seeing a lot of babies that are just spoiled.

Does anyone have helpful hints on how to 'train' them to be table calm? I try the gentle routine, trying to teach them 'stand'. But some of these are so awful! I had to resort to holding one 3lb Yorkie by the scruff of her neck to prevent her from ripping me up!

And the bath! Yikes! I felt like putting her in the toilet with the lid down andflusing a few times!

Again, any helpful trining ideas? I do talk to the Moms about alpha behavior, etc.

Nettie906
07-10-08, 10:59 AM
Alot of people are raising their dogs like they raise their children...nuf said...

Misty_Me
07-10-08, 11:12 AM
And the bath! Yikes! I felt like putting her in the toilet with the lid down andflusing a few times!



Lol, this made me laugh for some reason! I really don't think people comprehend that little dogs are still dogs. They figure that if the dog isn't big enough to cause damage, it doesn't need training. How many dogs end up in shelters each year because the owners couldn't deal with the behavior? All it takes is some training to fix it, but people today don't want to work for anything. It takes work to have a good dog. Lots of time in obedience. It's not a "she's a cute dog, and she'll grow up to be a good dog because her momma is sweet" type thing. Personality is huge, but there have to be behavior expectations too.

foxhound lady
07-10-08, 01:02 PM
Most of the small ones I groom are good little things, but the few who are not soon learn that the crocodile rolls don't work with me. It because people treat them like babies instead of dogs.

lovetogroom
07-10-08, 03:38 PM
I tried having a conversation with a lady today whose little Yorkie is going to end up a terror. She paid me to come out and basically brush her dog for a full grooming price. Why didn't she brush the dog herself, you ask. Because, "I don't want her to be mad at me". I'm serious. The dog would scream bloody murder when the comb came her way. I could control her vocals with a tip of the comb. Down meant scream, up meant quiet. I did that several times to aggravate the dog and burst out laughing.

The dog is spoiled rotten. I tried to talk to the owner about letting the dog growl and go on, but all she did was kiss the dog and say, "Was mommy's baby a bad girl during her groom". I got no where.

Yes, the small dogs of today are really out of control. These people would never let their children get by with growling and biting at them. Why their dogs? I do not understand.

Smart-n-Pretty
07-10-08, 05:10 PM
Just charge that owner extra, you guys.

kwpgrooming
07-11-08, 05:34 PM
I agree charge extra for bad behavior. If you work with them most will learn that are not allowed to act that way on the table. My rule is never stop doing something because the dog is acting up. Ignore the behavior & keep going. When you are ready to stop move to an area the pet will calm down for & stand still. Then stop. If they think the behavior will stop the grooming they will continue with that behavior. If grooming only ends when behavior is good they learn good behavior. It may take numerous sessions, but they will learn. Of course that doesn't mean they will act good for the owner. The owners usually stop when behavior is bad, and that is why they act that way.

amysue2638
07-11-08, 06:13 PM
These people would never let their children get by with growling and biting at them. Why their dogs? I do not understand.

Actually I think nowadays a lot of parents today DO let their children get away with very inappropriate behavior. Have you ever seen Super Nanny? I've seen a lot of shocking behavior by kids to their parents and it actually makes me sick.

The issues we see with these dogs is the same issue that daycare workers and teachers see with kids...overindulgence and lack of discipline. Parents work too much, and so to combat their guilt over not spending enough time with their kids and dogs they spoil them with both tangible things (like toys and treats) and a complete lack of discipline. It's sad.

ibkittykat
07-11-08, 06:49 PM
I laughed so much when I read your post. I feel the same way. I am in California, sometimes have the same problem. I don't think it is a reginal problem it is an owner problem.

Helly
07-12-08, 06:41 PM
Alot of people are raising their dogs like they raise their children...nuf said...

And that's why I'm often tempted to put a choke collar on so many kids and bring them the heel!

I was in WallyWorld last week, and there was a little girl, maybe 4 years old, who was screaming at her mother so loudly you could hear her throughout the whole building. It was so tempting to go over and tell her how lucky she is to have such a patient mother. If she were my little girl, I'd spank her, right there, in front of God and everyone.

Tat2DGroomer
07-14-08, 06:37 PM
another thing too.. nowadays you CANT give kids a good old fashion butt whupping like we all were raised with.. some busybody or even your OWN kid can put you in jail for it.. Its Ridiculous.

sfouch
07-20-08, 06:19 AM
I have come to find I would much rather groom the big dogs than the little ones. The big dogs I find you have to peel off of you from trying to lick you to death ,and the little ones you are trying to peel off their little teeth that are wrap around your fingers..lol.

Artifx
10-19-08, 04:34 PM
I'm a newbie, and up to this point have had pretty good dogs, including little breeds. I've had a few bad ones, but I think I am getting dogs that their parents have not groomed regularly and are therefore not very good on the table. I am also offering ridiculous rates so that I can practice and get my skills up, so I think I am getting a lot of dogs that are not groomed frequently. But today I almost quit.

It took me 6 hours to do 3 Shih Tzu's, and they were all tough! I couldn't even get near the face, feet or ears on one of them. So I think, maybe its trama? Maybe they've had their quicks cut, or face cut or something. Not matter how calm or forceful I was, it dodn't matter. Based on the comments in this thread, I will consider myself lucky because they did not try to bite. They just fought the scissors viciously!

So is the answer to charge more? Is there anyway to 'screen" these dogs before you get them so that you know you will have to cahrge more and advise the customer up front? I have an online profile form that I make all new customers complete, and I was wondering if the question of when their last grooming was would help this kind of situation - I ask about behavioral problems, but I never get a "yes" on that one!

Poodleluv
10-19-08, 07:28 PM
I get along great with most of my little dogs, with exceptions of course! It is true that many of them never have to do anything but whatever they want at home,and this is bound to make our job more difficult. The ones that I find hardest are the high strung pampered little pooches,who fisget,jump,bounce screech about nails. It is not their fault they are like this of course, but they sure wear a person down! Some of it is training for sure,or lack of! Especially with male toy poodles. I have several of these guys,who are so dramatic,and silly,it is nuts. It has to be the ownersnot training or brushing in some cases, as I knew a couple when they were pups, and my breeder friend had them trained,well behaved for grooming, one little guy she placed at 11 months,he was fine,we even put him in some sanction matches. he is 10 now and is groomed regularly,but not at home. he is really silly to the 9th degree,and certainly didn't start out that way?

jwsr
02-20-09, 11:27 AM
I hate for this to be my first post, but sorry, I was shocked.

I came to this site to learn all I could about grooming my Yorkie; tips, techniques,etc. I have a 17 week old puppy my kids bought for me after I lost the last of my two yorkie brothers two weeks before Christmas. I'm disabled, and yes, my Yorkies are like kids to me. They've been companion dogs for me while I'm alone, in pain, and my wife is at work.

What I've been reading in this thread just goes to justify, even more, me doing my own grooming of my pet. The comments and statements you people make clearly show most of you are in the wrong business. You have to really have a love for dogs to do this work. Or, at least, have a respect for the fact that these pets arefamily members to most owners.

I have a friend who's a real professional groomer in Chicago. She treats every dog as if it were her own; yes, small dogs also. She's patient, caring, and loves dogs. When I used to live there I watched her work. It was amazing the control she had over any breed, especially the toy breeds. She used kind, quiet, and gentle handling, not loud, mean, and agressive like some groomers.

Putting the dog "in the toilet and giving it a few flushes?!," very nice attitude. It's no wonder people fear bringing their little ones to a groomer, and that every time I took my last two Yorkies to the self appointed, so-called, "Professional" groomer, they came home with a hurt paw, limping, or scared to death to be handled.

There are many breed specific dog owner forums, that I belong to, where owners have many questions about groomers, and DIY grooming because of worry about their pets well being. There are even links to undercover videos of Petsmart groomers abusing dogs. To confirm their fears, I'll be using quotes from this site to show how groomer really think and why they should get a good set of Andis clippers, several blades, a good table and arm, various good shears, not necessarily Kamisori, but at least Geib quality, and as I did, and learn to do it themselves.

I used to think groomers were in it because of their love of dogs. But I learned the hard way that that's not the case. In my first sentence I told why I was here. But all I've mostly read is groomers (many, not all) whining about their jobs. Those who have that hateful attitude are not only in the wrong profession, but make all good groomers look bad

I apologize for the rant, but the attitudes of some of you people are just plain scary.

abandk03
02-20-09, 11:51 AM
Yes these pets are treated like litttle babies and they do not no any better. My shop is the same out of control little cute things trying to bite my hand off.

Smart-n-Pretty
02-20-09, 01:02 PM
I hate for this to be my first post, but sorry, I was shocked.

I came to this site to learn all I could about grooming my Yorkie; tips, techniques,etc. I have a 17 week old puppy my kids bought for me after I lost the last of my two yorkie brothers two weeks before Christmas. I'm disabled, and yes, my Yorkies are like kids to me. They've been companion dogs for me while I'm alone, in pain, and my wife is at work.

What I've been reading in this thread just goes to justify, even more, me doing my own grooming of my pet. The comments and statements you people make clearly show most of you are in the wrong business. You have to really have a love for dogs to do this work. Or, at least, have a respect for the fact that these pets arefamily members to most owners.

I have a friend who's a real professional groomer in Chicago. She treats every dog as if it were her own; yes, small dogs also. She's patient, caring, and loves dogs. When I used to live there I watched her work. It was amazing the control she had over any breed, especially the toy breeds. She used kind, quiet, and gentle handling, not loud, mean, and agressive like some groomers.

Putting the dog "in the toilet and giving it a few flushes?!," very nice attitude. It's no wonder people fear bringing their little ones to a groomer, and that every time I took my last two Yorkies to the self appointed, so-called, "Professional" groomer, they came home with a hurt paw, limping, or scared to death to be handled.

There are many breed specific dog owner forums, that I belong to, where owners have many questions about groomers, and DIY grooming because of worry about their pets well being. There are even links to undercover videos of Petsmart groomers abusing dogs. To confirm their fears, I'll be using quotes from this site to show how groomer really think and why they should get a good set of Andis clippers, several blades, a good table and arm, various good shears, not necessarily Kamisori, but at least Geib quality, and as I did, and learn to do it themselves.

I used to think groomers were in it because of their love of dogs. But I learned the hard way that that's not the case. In my first sentence I told why I was here. But all I've mostly read is groomers (many, not all) whining about their jobs. Those who have that hateful attitude are not only in the wrong profession, but make all good groomers look bad

I apologize for the rant, but the attitudes of some of you people are just plain scary.

I'm glad you posted here, sir. I have mentioned in a roundabout way before that the public judges our professionalism by our attitudes and one of the ways they judge our attitude is by what we post. It is my opinion that as professionals we can never "check out". We have to ALWAYS be professional. Professional is more than winning a grooming contest because your corporation sponsors it or because you are a more proficient stylist. Professional is what you become. There are MANY true professionals here who cringe when we read things like "Put the dog or cat in the toilet and flush it a few times." Not every one SHOULD be a stylist but NEITHER should the entire profession be dismissed as A-holes because of a few hot heads.

One thing a site like this does is allow us to communicate with other professionals and get perspective. More than once on THIS site have TRUE professionals said to groomers who are learning to be professionals in effect, "Check your attitude, get perspective, these people pay your bills and these spoiled dogs are the reason you can care for your family and have the lifestyle that you do" or "Here is a more professional verbiage to use to inform the client without offending them".

There is very little education of clients on grooming for more than one reason. (1)-Many pet care professionals do not know how to respectfully educate their clients and (2)-many clients do not wish to change their vision of the dynamic between the stylist and the owner. As "owners" they are unwilling to be given information because that might precipitate change. They see us as having no value due to being on the "wrong" side of the counter.

There are two basic philosophies in pet grooming; one groomer gets into this because he or she is abrasive and cannot get along with people but there are others who truly feel healed and can share healing with the beloved beings left in our care. If you paint all of us with the same brush you do a great disservice to those of us in the latter category.

If you research this site there is more than one "rant" type thread and somebody always comes on and says "Knock it off--Either charge enough so you don't hate the dog/client or dismiss the client." PLEASE do look at ALL of us as "You people".

Smart-n-Pretty
02-20-09, 02:10 PM
I might also add that sometimes owners who do not know how to groom hurt the dogs and turn them off to grooming creating a grooming nightmare. When an experienced groomer teaches a novice groomer they never start out on a dog who is also learning to get a groom. They get a dog who knows the ropes and stand next to the novice to go through each part of each step. Anything less is putting the baby in danger.

flyingfur
02-20-09, 06:58 PM
jwsr - I think you are taking this the wrong way.

Most, if not all, of these groomers LOVE dogs. We have a really difficult job however, if the owners do not make any attempt at training their dog to be groomed. Yes - it takes training and effort on the part of owners to be able to calmly groom a dog. We only see them once every two or three months.

This thread is talking out what to do when the owners have not trained their dog and the dog is difficult to groom, or worse trying to bite off your hand while you are grooming him.

Groomers have to deal with the "public" every day. This is a very demanding job. This is where we come to vent.

windywaycavaliers
02-20-09, 07:22 PM
I haven't noticed it here- I am just replying to say that you might have found yourself a HUGE niche there by only grooming LARGE dogs considering how many shops only groom SMALL dogs! You should have no problem booking out, in fact, you could be rich!

Lucy in the Sky
02-20-09, 08:13 PM
JW-
What you see here is partially the result of owners that are the opposite of you. A groomer you may look into is a housecall groomer- everything is done within your sight/hearing.
Most groomers are tired and frustrated at the end of the day because the people customers have not de-sensitized their dogs to the grooming process. As a result, groomers are very often severely injured and the owners think that their little dog did nothing wrong by lashing out at the groomer. Will they think their dog did nothing wrong when it bites a child or other dog, because the behavior a dog shows at the groomer is often displayed at other times the dog is stressed. A five pound dog can cause just as much damage as a 100 lb one if the dog gets a nerve. I was bit recently by a 3 month old puppy, and the owner didn't give a ****. And no, I did nothing in any manner to "rough up" the pup. All I did was touch her in a place that a young child had hurt her in and I was not warned. I had a nice swelling on my face that night.
I hope you find a reassuring groomer that you can trust. You sound like a client a groomer could trust.

Smart-n-Pretty
02-20-09, 09:00 PM
I second your trying out a house call groomer. I do it on the side and ALL my clients claim to have had bad salon experiences and all are grateful I am there.

maltmom
02-20-09, 10:34 PM
I'm not a groomer, but I also come here for tips on grooming my malts in between groom appointments so I don't become one of the "can you believe her reason the dog is matted" threads. lol

I can see that alot of what is said on here is just venting. Everyone needs a place to vent to others who understand what they deal with every day.

And, I admit that my two are spoiled - why not? But they are also obedient and do well when being groomed because I have a GREAT groomer and I groom and train them at home. But, I must say that the following quote is atrocious and I would never give my business to a groomer who has this attitude. Why aggravate a dog on purpose just so you can have a good laugh?

"The dog would scream bloody murder when the comb came her way. I could control her vocals with a tip of the comb. Down meant scream, up meant quiet. I did that several times to aggravate the dog and burst out laughing."

And, also the following post. I don't think it's spoiled to have a car set for a small dog. In fact, a responsible owner of a small dog should have a car seat to protect their dog while traveling. Because of her background, my rescue does not do well in a crate so we use a car seat. And, what's wrong with having a blanket for your dog? I agree it may not be safe to have one in a crate though. I also have a stroller for my two. It has come in handy several times at large dog events when we're going to be out for hours and they can't walk that far or get tired during the day. And, most importantly, if the event is so crowded there's a chance they could be trampled underfoot even if on a short lead and after a while even a five pound dog starts to get heavy if you carry it around long enough. Why would protecting your dog in a stroller or car set be thought of as "sickening"?

"I agree...They act like spoiled little things because people are not treating them like dogs, they are treating them like babies. Look at what is available now for 'puppies'...strollers, front packs, car seats, bumpers and blankets for the kennel, baby exercise mats, etc...as if they need that ****! It is sickening!"

kimmcamp
02-21-09, 12:01 AM
Well since I own 6 Bichons and have no trouble grooming them or the other Bichons I do...it isn't ALL small breeds. But gosh darn it, this thread of conversation made me look at my rescued Shih Tzu tis morning and I decided I had avoided it longer then I should. Believe me, it is like a bucking bronco in the tub.... on the table while getting dryed... even in a support harness.... he was jumping all around by moving... and finially while I got him clipped down with a #7!! The fact he didn't bite me, is only cause I am fast... he did bite the clippers a number of times. Troll and he lives up to his name...or did I name him that cause he IS such a Troll!! He is sweet and loving, until you do something he doesn't think of first..... not one to be told to do anything... reminds me of a teenager.... argues for the sake of it. You can usually tell, even he doesn't believe his side of the story, while he growls and thrashed to bite you.

alina1686
02-21-09, 06:55 AM
I definitely see the owner's perspective on this one (some of the stuff that was written would sound really bad to a pet owner), but I also know how some dogs can be...I also know that NO ONE here would actually hurt a dog...I know that when you have had a frustrating day at work, and you get that last little dog that gets on your LAST nerves...Mmmm, I just think, ONE MORE AND I GET TO GO HOME! I actually have 2 Bernese Mountain Dogs that come in, and BOY are they stubborn, and extremely heavy...Either way though, I think sometimes you just need to take a deep breath and start over....or move onto the next dog until this one calms down...Which may not apply to all groomers (especially mobile or housecall since there may not be another dog to move onto). I would also like to say to the pet owners that come here for advice: Some of the groomers that come to this site, don't have any other groomers to talk to, so this is the only place we can vent to people that go through the same stuff we do! Also, any of us would be more than willing to give advice! There are SOOO many brilliant groomers on this site, and I don't want a post like this to make US (groomers in general) look bad...We are not MEAN to the dogs, but they can be a handful at times.

I also have to say that I have people that come in and say "I wish I could PLAY with dogs all day."

We don't get to play with them, we have to groom them, and a lot of the time it is easier SAID than DONE...This just shows me the perspective some people have about the level of difficulty of our job...

I had one customer that became a housecall because her dog would get nose bleeds anywhere she took him...The first day I went to groom her dog at her house, (4 hours later when the dog was finished, she sat and watched the whole time BTW) She said to me

"I had NO CLUE how hard your job is, I have so much appreciation and a new perspective on what you do"

She pretty much went on to say that I have a very difficult job and she never knew how hard it was. She is never going to look at groomers in the same way! So I'm sure most people have the same view she did, so it might be a good idea to take the time and watch one day to see how difficult it can be!

maltmom
02-21-09, 07:07 AM
Alina, if I didn't believe that there were some brilliant groomers on this site I wouldn't keep coming back. I have learned a lot from y'all. Thanks!

Max'sMom
02-21-09, 07:11 AM
I totally agree. And further more, I think any small dog named Angel should just be banned from the grooming shops. I don't know what it is about that name, but they are always the worst!

jwsr
02-21-09, 11:20 AM
PLEASE do look at ALL of us as "You people".

I'm pretty sure you meant PLEASE don't look at all of us as "You people." I'm not; I was only referring to those who's posts I found to be mean spirited.

I've received a couple PM's, and have read the replies to my post. I didn't intend for my post to be an indictment of allgroomers. If that's the way it was taken, I apologize. It's just that from our end, as clients, we read some of these rants in a public forum and think, "If this is the way they come home at the end of the day, do they bring that same attitude back to work the next morning?"

I understand how frustrating your profession can be. I wouldn't do it if I were paid $500 per dog! I'll admit, I don't have the patience it requires. So, after a little thought, I believe you deserve a little steam release. I wouldn't post these rants anywhere on other forums. The owners are already worried enough. They just need to understand a little better, like I do now.

I'm with you all when it comes to owners responsibility. If they don't do any groom training at home from day one, then what can they expect from their groomer. As an old ex-Marine Nam Vet, I thrive on discipline. Just ask my 36 year old twins. And, I apply it to my pets also, only my pets don't get paddled.

Oh, and bites; I know bites! When Pogo here was 11 weeks old, I was playing with him on the floor, no shirt, I was on all fours and he was running like he was on a race track. He ran under my chest, stood up, and clamped on to my right nipple full force drawing blood. Now, I've got tough hands and his blood drawing bites there, I can take. But where he got me; I wanted to cry like a little girl! In comparison to Yorkie bites on the hand, I have a 9 foot long, 35 lb. Boa constrictor which I have been bitten by over my entire hand (a feeding mistake I made) 100 razor sharp 1/4" teeth in the hand make a Yorkie bite feel like a gentle massage. But, that's another forum.

My little guy right now is a living terror; two pounds, 13 ounces of Tasmanian Devil! I wouldn't put him on a groomer if I hated the person! He's in that hyper Yorkie puppy stage where his entire lifestyle is run, bite, and chew. But, I am working now on getting him used to the touch of the tools, his feet being handled and touched by the nail clippers, and getting him used to the clippers touching him, turned off and running. A little at a time, and so far he's doing fairly well. But, I've got a long way to go, and hope to learn a lot from this site.

Thanks to all for your replies and understanding. I sincerely hope I didn';t offend too many here.

I look forward to learning from you all.

Best Wishes,

Jerry