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Gracy Rose
10-18-10, 03:30 PM
For those who know me you know that I am a researcher by nature. I do not agree or disagree with how people choose to run their OWN business- I only know HOW I ALLOW my business to be run.
First- let me say that I do NOT allow products "not made for the trade" to be used on skin, coat or crevices of pets. With this being said last year I wrote a letter to Proctor and Gamble in regards to the safety of Dawn dish soap and then again wrote a letter to Johnson and Johnson about Tear Free vs Tear Less in baby shampoo. When I want answers I will ALWAYS go to the source.

I did write a letter to Church Dwight- the company that owns Nair. I received a very informative letter from Jennifer Cuthbert liaison for Customer Relations and their Legal Department. I have been out of town and returned today to a CERTIFIED Letter informing me of their stand on my questions.
Here was my email letter to them:

In regards to your product Nair-
I am a pet groomer and recently heard of your product being used in a diluted formula as an ear hair depilatory on dogs. I am intrigued by the thought but wanted to understand exactly which ingredients if any may propose a danger to the pet. I understand that this is to be considered "common practice" in my profession.

Their reply: Nair products are not made for Animals and we are strongly opposed to using it on Animals. Due to the fact that ears create a suction the possibility is so great to create a vacuum and draw Nair products into the ear canal that we are legally opposed anyone who does this as part of a business. We ask that you not use our products on animals and any further information in regards to the practice of using our products on animals be addressed to me and include case no. 004611563A.

Just thought y'all would like to know of their response and my concern is where they wrote "legally opposed".

puligroomer
10-18-10, 04:15 PM
I have seen the damage that Nair can do to a dog's ears first hand. I recently got a new client when the previous groomer had thought that using chemicals was kinder than plucking. This dog, a young goldendoodle, has severe burns deep in his ears. The skin is badly scarred and the dog screams if you touch the ears. The skin of the ear flaps is thick with the scars. The good news is that the scarred skin of the ear canal will no longer grow ear hair.

I will stick with plucking.

Kat

ferretlov
10-18-10, 04:45 PM
I cant use nair on myself at all.If I do My legs are red and pufffy for days . and it BURNS!!!!!! WOULD NEVER put it on my dog! Ive also tried veet ,cant use that either. Im convinced that stuff is bad news.

rach58
10-18-10, 05:27 PM
I have heard horror stories of people using it and wouldn't dare use it on a dog's ears!!

PrincessPoodle
10-18-10, 05:37 PM
No only do I feel its not safe, but I'm sure your business insurance would not cover and accident caused by neglect. Basically you chose to use a product not made for animals therefore it's the groomers fault. Not worth my reputation or if I owned a business the risk of losing that as well

Pixie
10-18-10, 05:43 PM
I must say I have considered using it, but haven't. Thank you Gracy Rose for the research. Guess I'm plucking when it calls for it. :)

workingchihuahua
10-18-10, 06:02 PM
and they gave you a case number. Good job Kristen!

pooh13
10-18-10, 06:51 PM
for many many years I have joked while shaving poodle feet wow can't we just dip their feet in nair? and yes this was purely jokingly on my part.I am glad that you are compelled to reach these manufacturers in regards to the product safety for the use of animals. I strongly agree with you about the use of any of these products.. keep up the good work

foxfey
10-18-10, 07:22 PM
Thank you for clearing that up.

there are only 2 things that I have ever used on dogs to clean them that wasnt made just for dogs.. one is dawn dish soap which is used to help degrease wild life during oil spills and I never use it where it could possibly get into the eyes. and the other is baby wash around the muzzle again being extra careful to not get it in the eyes too ( this was done at the instruction of one of my former bosses cause she stated that she has never had a soap reaction to it unlike some dog shampoos that have caused eyes to water excessively)
The other non animal item I have used is corn starch for helping to remove mats but that is completely washed out .. beginning to wonder if that is safe for a dog that is allergic to corn??? anyone got that answer seeing as I now work at a vet's office and i see a lot of skin allergy reactions.....

BUT once again Thank you for finding out.

OntheBRINKofDisaster
10-18-10, 08:59 PM
Nair burns because the main hair removing ingredient in it is a type of acid! It breaks down hair proteins. I'm not condemning those that use it, but I know I cannot do so myself. I can't bring myself to use a product on dog that I can't even use on my own hair.

I only used it once, it was very painful, and it left me extremely red/irritated where applied. It also did not dissolve any hair! Maybe it's because I'm Italian. Lol.

arlaede
10-18-10, 09:48 PM
Thank you for clearing that up.

there are only 2 things that I have ever used on dogs to clean them that wasnt made just for dogs.. one is dawn dish soap which is used to help degrease wild life during oil spills and I never use it where it could possibly get into the eyes. and the other is baby wash around the muzzle again being extra careful to not get it in the eyes too ( this was done at the instruction of one of my former bosses cause she stated that she has never had a soap reaction to it unlike some dog shampoos that have caused eyes to water excessively)
The other non animal item I have used is corn starch for helping to remove mats but that is completely washed out .. beginning to wonder if that is safe for a dog that is allergic to corn??? anyone got that answer seeing as I now work at a vet's office and i see a lot of skin allergy reactions.....

BUT once again Thank you for finding out.

If you want to be ultra safe, I can confirm that Bark to Basics Citrus shampoo gets grease out just as good as dawn does. The whole wild life oil spill thing sounds great, but you are talking about birds that would die otherwise. In our case, as groomers, we're working on at least semi-healthy pets. I'm sure if you call Moni at Groomer's Choice (888-364-6242) she'd send you a bottle free of charge so you can try it - they are really good about samples. If you want me to call her first and give her the heads up I will, just pm me. I will say that The B2B Citrus is the first shampoo I've found that does get grease and ear meds out of ears.

AND I use whatever dog shampoo I'm using on the dog's body on the face. In 11 years I've never had an issue. Granted, I don't put it in the dogs eyes! I try to keep it out of them and rinse well, downward. Please I'm not trying to stir up a debate but honestly I think baby wash/baby shampoo is hooey. Anything, even just water in the eyes, can cause tearing. The thing to watch for is the surfactants. Sodium Lauryl or laurylth are not so good - sodium is a salt (basic terms) ammonium lauryl is better. A major complaint I get from clients (going to other groomers) is dogs faces not being or smelling clean. I truly believe if we are careful we can wash a dogs face without getting soap in it's eyes. Many of you do it for your kids! Granted, if it makes you feel better to have a tearless backup for those thrashing bath clients, fine, but for many dogs that bathe well just use what you're using!

Yes, I use corn starch too, if I get a really greasy dog or cat in I will carefully apply it to their coat, pre-bath, brush it through to help absorb some of the oil, then wash it all out. I think it is fine if you are careful about not getting it in their eyes or them inhaling it. Corn allergies are more about dogs eating corn, an internal sort of allergy.

And LOL there have been many times I'd wished Nair would come up with a dog product for poodle feet....but probably never going to happen ;)

lefty
10-18-10, 10:58 PM
This is my story about nair. When I was in my early 20's I decided to use it in my 'bikini area' It literally ate holes in my skin. I looked like I had an active case of herpes, and was too embarassed to go swimming for weeks. I've heard it is used with some success on dog's ears, but I have been cautious, due to my horrible experience. I'm glad to have the definitive answer. Thanks.

puppy love
10-19-10, 02:21 AM
Thanks Gracy Rose for doing the research and sharing your info. I too have heard of groomers using Nair in the ears and swearing by it, but I have always been afraid of it for the very reasons you & others posted. Dogs ears are sensitive and Nair is not a product that is made for the ear canal. I can see where it could cause significant damage and pain to the dog. I dont want that liability.. I'll stick to plucking.

sheilabgroomer
10-19-10, 04:19 AM
I must say I have considered using it, but haven't. Thank you Gracy Rose for the research. Guess I'm plucking when it calls for it. :)


Me too, but I never got the nerve up. Don't think I will ever consider it again after reading some of these reply's.

wendtd
10-19-10, 04:36 AM
If you want to be ultra safe, I can confirm that Bark to Basics Citrus shampoo gets grease out just as good as dawn does. ...
And LOL there have been many times I'd wished Nair would come up with a dog product for poodle feet....but probably never going to happen ;)

I appreciate your clear and sensible response. Being the new owner of a recirculating system and watching many dvd's of I can see that there is a big difference between how many people wash faces and how you and I do it. Not in the products they use, but how they do it. Some people, you and I included, are simply much more careful to not get water down the ears or shampoo in the eyes. I don't ever use cotton balls in ears in the bath tub, as I don't get water in the ears. I wash ears carefully. When I wash heads, I do so separately from bodies and use mild shampoos watered down, and avoid the eyes, but I certainly lather around the eyes. When I rinse the dog's face, I use plain clean water, keep the ears shut and spray the dog's eyes to get the shampoo off the head. Just like you say, I've never have a the slightest problem either. If I was lathering the actual eyes, there would be a problem and I'd need tearless shampoo. If I was spraying water right at the open ear, I'd use cotton too.

I personally am using Dawn dish soap on my own greasy cats from now on. I've heard about it long before coming a groomer, and I took the plunge because of Debi Hilley. Dawn dish soap has worked better than anything I've ever tried., including Les Pooches F&T and Les Pooches Hypoallergenic, following Danelle German, the best of the best cat groomer. I used first used Dawn Dish Soap on my own little greaseball Lemon last week and followed it up with Les Pooches F&T and made sure as always to rinse her completely. She's staying cleaner than I've ever seen. I am confident in using Dawn because way so many people on this board and groomers on YouTube have been using it for years without an issue.

As for the bane of poodling poodle feet, as bad as it is now, can you even imagine how people groomed poodle feet before the clippers we have today? Poodles have been around for hundreds of years. I bet you until electric clippers, their feet weren't shaved. Modernity!!!!!!!

SiberianLover
10-19-10, 06:57 AM
Corn allergies are more about dogs eating corn, an internal sort of allergy.


Just want to mention that my mother and I are both severely allergic to corn. She is worse than me. She can no longer go to the movies beacuse being near corn (popcorn) makes her swell up, break out in hives and start having trouble breathing. She ended up at the doctors after being given an antibiotic that was made from corn, and had also had to seek medical treatment after using a face wash that contained corn.

I myself cannot be around popcorn without getting a rash everywhere and itching intently.

I know, I'm not a dog and my mom and I may be extreme cases, but I just wanted to point out that there are food allergies that don't have to actually be EATEN to have a reaction to.

arlaede
10-19-10, 08:50 AM
As for the bane of poodling poodle feet, as bad as it is now, can you even imagine how people groomed poodle feet before the clippers we have today? Poodles have been around for hundreds of years. I bet you until electric clippers, their feet weren't shaved. Modernity!!!!!!!

I can see owners way back then with the hand operated clipper, you know the kind u squeeze to move the blade...

arlaede
10-19-10, 08:50 AM
Just want to mention that my mother and I are both severely allergic to corn. ...e are food allergies that don't have to actually be EATEN to have a reaction to.

Point taken :) Probably like people with peanut allergies.

SwissNChow
10-19-10, 09:14 AM
I just skip the Dawn and go directly to Les Pooch F & T on my cats. One less step in the bath (and that makes the kitties happier) and I just have not found that first step of Dawn worth doing. It is the F & T that degreases my cats. Dawn has little to no affect on them other than to make them "gummy" in all their greasy spots.

I am really not a fan of using products not labeled for pets. I understand they use Dawn on oily wildlife (and they say it takes multiple baths), but I also figure it's because the Dawn is often donated for the process, and I can't imagine what F & T would cost them. It sure would make their job easier though!

I Care
10-19-10, 10:04 AM
Thanks for the information, although I never thought for a moment about using that in dogs ears.

Debbiedogs
10-19-10, 10:18 AM
I did write a letter to Church Dwight- the company that owns Nair. I received a very informative letter from Jennifer Cuthbert liaison for Customer Relations and their Legal Department. I have been out of town and returned today to a CERTIFIED Letter informing me of their stand on my questions.
Here was my email letter to them:

In regards to your product Nair-
I am a pet groomer and recently heard of your product being used in a diluted formula as an ear hair depilatory on dogs. I am intrigued by the thought but wanted to understand exactly which ingredients if any may propose a danger to the pet. I understand that this is to be considered "common practice" in my profession.

Their reply: Nair products are not made for Animals and we are strongly opposed to using it on Animals. Due to the fact that ears create a suction the possibility is so great to create a vacuum and draw Nair products into the ear canal that we are legally opposed anyone who does this as part of a business. We ask that you not use our products on animals and any further information in regards to the practice of using our products on animals be addressed to me and include case no. 004611563A.

Just thought y'all would like to know of their response and my concern is where they wrote "legally opposed".

I don't know why you would tell them it's considered a common practice, as it obviously isn't.

And of course they are opposed to using it on animals (even though the irony is that they probably used animals to test it before humans) - that and the "legally opposed" comment are CYA statements, pure and simple.

Ears create a vacuum? And have suction? Whew!!

And the practice to which you are referring makes clear mention of NOT going into the ear canal, remember? You can't just use items that support your preference without noting the items that would counter it. That would be partial and biased, instead of thorough and rational.

As you may or may not know, I am NOT for or against using Nair, but obviously it has its careful users and beneficial results, as do: Dawn, mineral oil (many groomers use it in eyes), human hair products, etc., so there is no need to write as though it is the worst thing that could ever be used. For those who think it goes down the ear canal, it is best that they DON'T ever use it. (Plus, didn't the instructions about it say to use a specific, short-acting Nair product?)

Just sayin'......

Debbiedogs
10-19-10, 10:55 AM
My response has disappeared twice, so here goes again....

(Stephen: ? No one here has removed any of your responses, but this one is noted and going through for sure.)

Nair company HAS to say what they said as a CYA move. "Legally opposed" does not mean that you are correct, it means only that they need to say that.

Ears have a vacuum? Suction? Wow - gonna teach my dogs to clean the carpet!!

And don't you find it ironic that the Nair people have to say that they oppose it for animals when they probably tested it on animals before okaying it for humans?

I am not saying I think everyone should use it, especially those who don't find out that it is NOT to be used IN the ear canal! I have not used it, just read about it. Directions were clear as to NOT putting it in the ear canal. And didn't the info specify a certain "short-acting" Nair? It seems somewhat misleading for you to write to Nair and say that this is done as a "common practice". Taking things that support your position and ignoring things that counter it makes you appear biased and manipulative, rather than thorough and rational. I am sure that you know that this is not true or actual research.

People use Dawn, mineral oil (in eyes, yes?), human hair products, etc. on dogs, so slamming a beneficial use of Nair is going a bit too far; they will most likely come out with the same one but labeled "for dogs" and put all the warnings/instructions, etc. on the label, and then what? Then we can blame people for not taking care and putting it down ear canals when they weren't supposed to, not watching when they WERE supposed to, etc. - the same as we know that people cooking dogs with heat dryers weren't providing adequate care.

Just sayin'....

dbarcreations<3westies
10-19-10, 11:53 AM
And of course they are opposed to using it on animals (even though the irony is that they probably used animals to test it before humans) - that and the "legally opposed" comment are CYA statements, pure and simple.

Ears create a vacuum? And have suction? Whew!!

.....

I was thinking the same thing...

Smart-n-Pretty
10-19-10, 03:31 PM
Debbie dogs, I was thinking everything you were saying. I was also thinking, "Down the ear canal? Like I said, some Dumas will probably do it wrong and blame the directions they did not read."

After further consideration, I really am beginning to feel persecuted regarding this subject and it doesn't help that the person who is worrying this subject like a dog with a bone is a well known author and a CMG. I wish I had NEVER posted that I used Nair once in 7 years, though I am still grateful to Debi Hiley for sharing the technique.

Gracy Rose
10-19-10, 04:10 PM
Debbiedog- I said "common practice" because that is how it was mentioned by the author of the Nair instructions. That was used as a counter point to being sued when something goes wrong.

I understand that companies need to "protect their ASSets"- and more than likely you are right to it being tested on animals BUT Companies want to make money. If there are new ways in which to use their products I am sure they support it BUT if they believe that it will cost them more in liability than asset than maybe, just maybe, that is why they oppose.

I tried to position my questions in a way that they would not feel that I was for nor against this method, although as most of you know I am STRONGLY opposed.

Ears do create a vacuum system this is why we have to "pop" our ears on airplanes and why divers have to be careful of the "bends" although I hadn't thought of it for dogs. So, I am not quite sure what you mean by ...whew- could you explain please?

Debbiedogs quote: You can't just use items that support your preference without noting the items that would counter it. That would be partial and biased, instead of thorough and rational.--
~I wrote my questions to be non-biased and seek information.
~ I believe that my questions to be quite rational and concise.
~I am trying to understand your meaning, are you saying that I didn't give them a list of items to counter their response or the reasons it is used?
~ I wasn't trying to be thorough with that letter I was trying to get a few questions answered.
~ Just in case you think I was biased by not including the "educational video" link to ChurchDwight, I have and referenced my case number. I will let you know as soon as I hear back.

As many of you know I am against this practice because it "chemically" burns off the hair (diluted or not). I won't even use them on me let alone my pet. But, I understand that many of you feel it is okay- I just wanted you to see both sides. Sometimes the easiest way out is not the safest way out.

Alright- let the bashing begin :-)

Stephen: There will be no bashing and using our board to target others.

konalee
10-19-10, 04:12 PM
I don't feel as if anyone is trying to persecute anyone else on this matter. Just as in life, we all have our different opinions and ways of doing things. Some people are dead set for using Nair on dogs, and some people are dead set against it, and nobody is going to be able to get the "other side" to change their mind. Which is why I think it was smart to write the company and do research. With that in mind, obviously the manufacture's opinion on the issue has been posted. Take from it what you will and happy grooming.

Gracy Rose
10-19-10, 04:27 PM
After further consideration, I really am beginning to feel persecuted

Why? You know that I truly like you :-) I am sorry that you feel this topic is being over used but we as a profession need to always do what we believe to be best. As I have stated MANY times this is strictly my opinion and since several of you supported this issue I wanted to find out what the exact chemical used is and their opinion. Provided your client was aware of what you did, then never feel persecuted- your job is to ONLY please your clients and screw the rest of us :-)

Doubledogdare
10-19-10, 06:23 PM
As for the bane of poodling poodle feet, as bad as it is now, can you even imagine how people groomed poodle feet before the clippers we have today? Poodles have been around for hundreds of years. I bet you until electric clippers, their feet weren't shaved. Modernity!!!!!!!



Take a look at my avatar, wendy.

That dog is English Champion Orchard Minstrel, a "Big Poodle" from over a century ago. He lived well before "electric clipping machines" and he had clipped feet.

I have drawings from that era of machines that were used to clip horses and dogs and other livestock, the power being supplied by some schmuck on a bicycle, pumping away for all he was worth to keep the blades going. What the "clipping machines" didn't get, a razor would take care of quite nicely.

And, keep in mind, back in the Gay Nineties, Poodle patterns in general were far more ornate than they are today.

But, yes, the feet were clipped.

Admin
10-19-10, 06:55 PM
Enough has been said, and this whole thing has been has been blown out of proportion by emotions, and seemingly real or illusionary threats do not belong on our board. Enough with the angst with other people. This board was NOT made to go after other people, it seems I have to say that again, and keep deleting overly aggressive posts.

This thread is closed.